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Poster: Incornsyucopia Date: Dec 2, 2007 3:53pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Do you like Drumz>Space/Feedback?

So I'm writing a paper for a grad seminar I'm in on the cognitive dynamics of music listening. It's on how the Dead were able to play, and make aesthetically accessible to popular music audiences modernist musical styles that have, for the most part been very unpopular. Now I have always loved these parts of their shows, but I've also heard of those who'd take this time to run to the bathroom or otherwise not pay attention. So I'm curious what people here might think...

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Poster: BryanE Date: Dec 2, 2007 6:08pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do you like Drumz>Space/Feedback?

Purely as a matter of necessity, the drums sequence though to the point when the complete band would be back on stage would present one of the most opportune moments during the entire show to go piss. Or shit. If you needed to piss or shit, then you'd have a nice 20-minute window or so to piss or shit without missing any songs.

Personally, if the need arose, or even if nature wasn't actually calling at that particular time, I would always gear up to face the throngs taking care of business during intermission because I didn't want to miss a note if I could avoid doing so. I was absolutely fascinated with Drums>Space and thought they were elements that really made Grateful Dead concerts unique, so I was one of the many who rode out that part of the show with the band.

Clearly, you have a lot of analytical insight working to consider the question. Your syntax is just a tad awkward, though. And I'm not immune to that, either. Of course, posting an inquiry here and presenting your findings in a paper for grad school are two entirely different things. But if it's not too presumptuous for me to make the observation, I think it is to your benefit for it to be brought to your attention. Obviously you will make the personal choice when presenting your findings as to whether or not you refer to people going to piss or shit.

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Poster: cream-puff-war Date: Dec 2, 2007 6:59pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do you like Drumz>Space/Feedback?

or pass out, or pass on...



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Poster: Incornsyucopia Date: Dec 2, 2007 7:11pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do you like Drumz>Space/Feedback?

Thanks to everyone for their comments so far. Just to be clear, this is not an ethnographic paper so I'm not actually planning on using any/all of your responses for it. I was just curious, given my thesis, if my personal experience of finding these parts of shows so interesting and enjoyable was as widely shared as I think - anecdotal though it may be.

Arbutnot: I agree with you. This wasn't what defined them musically, but it was, I think, a very important component. What I've always loved about the Dead was their willingness and ability to move from the most traditional of song forms to the most far out of modern sounds and do it in a way that made the latter relatively accessible to popular music audiences. The drugs certainly helped, but what I'm interested in, and what I'm trying to express in this paper, is what they did musically that enabled them to bridge what are usually completely divergent musical forms.

BrianE: I'm not too sure what you mean by my awkward syntax; enlighten me if you would. I wrote that post in about a minute so please don't think that it is representative of my formal writing skills. Pissing and shitting will definitely not be mentioned...

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Poster: BryanE Date: Dec 3, 2007 6:33am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do you like Drumz>Space/Feedback?

It's a really interesting thing to consider, and I admire that you're working on such a cerebral project, so forgive me if I come off as being snide or anything, because it's not my intention to be that way (as far as my intention with all of the scatological gobbledygook---fuck, I dunno, man---chalk it up to a softened brain after about two and a half hours of helping my daughter with her homework, and no, I'm not smarter than a 5th grader). I'm not surprised, though, that you typed out your question in less than a minute---the concept is somewhat complex, and a quick draft of your query, unfortunately, did read somewhat confusingly, particularly the clause that fell between the commas:

"It's on how the Dead were able to play, and make aesthetically accessible to popular music audiences modernist musical styles that have, for the most part been very unpopular."

I think it's a question of the word "play" being connected to the description of "modernistic musical styles." Had another comma been inserted in between "part" and "been," and then the "aesthetically accesible" idea added afterward as another clause, perhaps it wouldn't have necessitated about three readings for a stoopid guy like me to wrap my mind around what you were asking---as if what I just wrote is any less confusing. And you will be infinitely more circumspect in the wording of your final paper, so it's moot, anyway, and therefore I'm going to shut the fuck up . . . except to reiterate that I really do get off on on Drums>Space.

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Poster: spacedface Date: Dec 2, 2007 7:19pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do you like Drumz>Space/Feedback?

No babies were tortured at any Grateful Dead show I attended!

By the time I got going to shows, Space was a set feature, and I liked World Music and offbeat classical and looked forward to The Beam and 6-foot tall barimbaus.

Not exactly an accident of timing, but the peak of the show for me was usually the 1st part of the 2nd set, and drums/space resolved out into some theme. Like this from Blows Against The Empire:

At first
I was iridescent
Then
I became transparent
Finally
I was absent

But in GDland after a fana then a baqa, reconstituting back into more familiar forms.

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Poster: buffalo69 Date: Dec 2, 2007 8:07pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do you like Drumz>Space/Feedback?

Drums was strictly so Jerry could go fix, take a breather, Phil could grab a beer "Or several" Bobby could grab a flesh popsicle, and Brent could knock back a few shots and a handful of Valium. Space allowed for one of, if not both drummers to chill out, while the rest of the boys fucked with everyone's heads that were blazed on psychedelics. Unless you were on the forementioned psychedelics, drums/space was time to cruise the hallways, say what up to the homes, grab a slice of pizza, drop a duce, and meet your crew behind the stage and smoke of 5 gram scoob. If you say you always listen to drums/space and is your favorite part of the show... you're lying

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Poster: Speaking in Swords Date: Dec 2, 2007 8:46pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do you like Drumz>Space/Feedback?

Thanks for clearing that up for me! I honestly don't know what I've been thinking all this time. You, sir, are a veritable godsend. From now on, I'm skipping over both Drums and Space when I listen to any given show, since NOTHING interesting EVER happened in those segments. Where would I be without your flawlessly objective contributions?

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Poster: Tito the Attention Whore Date: Dec 2, 2007 9:08pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do you like Drumz>Space/Feedback?

hey tito. how you doin? instead of "and meet your crew behind the stage" didnt yew mean "and MEAT your crew behind the stage"?
nobodee ever hid smokin a spliff at a dead show. if yews was hidin behind the stage yew musta been playin hide the salami.

yore ego is the only bag o shit i carry tito.

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Poster: cream-puff-war Date: Dec 2, 2007 9:17pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do you like Drumz>Space/Feedback?

the "crying baby strapped to the [Tractor Trailer] grill" at that show* was not harmed or tortured in any way!

It was enjoying the ride!

* http://www.archive.org/details/gd68-03-16.sbd.vernon.9388.sbeok.shnf

here's some feedback on 2-11-69

"Hey Bobby, we got a crying baby on the grill, hurry up with that flesh popsicle!"





This post was modified by cream-puff-war on 2007-12-03 05:17:35

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Poster: cousinkix1953 Date: Dec 2, 2007 6:03pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do you like Drumz>Space/Feedback?

Yes and No! It was fine, when Mickey and Billy were actually doing something on stage. I didn't much care for the canned digital stuff that was played from Bralove's machines in the later years. And there are times when "Drums and Space" were enhanced with a little weed too...

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Poster: patourkid Date: Dec 2, 2007 6:15pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do you like Drumz>Space/Feedback?

So heres the setting, my buddy's house on the edge of the national forest, mid summer big camping trip, drum circle planned for later in the evening, in pre party preparation my buddy says "hey man open the lid on that cooler" WOW!!! Fresh liberty caps just beginning to open up..."go ahead man dig in!!!" Cool "I'll just take one....it's still early" an hour later I'm thinking damn these things aren't that great..."yeah I got plenty, eat whatever you think you can handle". Thanks man, I'm gonna grab one of these bigger ones. It's about time to roll out to the woods, grab a hand full to pass out when we get there....COOL!!! So we get to the party GROOVY vibe things are great then BAM BOOM POW ZOOOMMMM!!!! To da moon ALICE!!!! At this point things become quite unpleasant skulls in the fire ,lights in the woods...what are those lights....lets go sit in the car maybe some music will help bring me around....pop in that new tape ,bust out some of Billy and Mickeys finest!!! Drums are cool gettin a good groove on then as if the cosmos had dealt me a crazy hand that second cap began to appear in the form of SERIOUS hallucinations, at the same time Jerry decided to break into MIND FUCK!!!!At this point things got WAY TOO WEIRD for my brain and I began to really lose all touch with reality ,how can things possibly sound THAT weird?!?!?! Is it really sounding like that or am I gonzo?!?!? Frank, does that sound all fucked up to you?!?!?" It's the dead man OF COURSE it sounds all fucked up!!!" From that point on I never could really dig on space too much TOO WEIRD!! I dig a good drum session but the space just trips me out too much. When they did it just right they could destroy my grip on reality and leave me floating around in some weird sound scape that was at times just not comfortable and when they didn't hit it just right it was boring. So for me it was a double edged sword.

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Poster: cream-puff-war Date: Dec 2, 2007 6:45pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do you like Drumz>Space/Feedback?

when the huge spider with a skull for a head begins spinning you around and around in her web it's too late to ask,
"Is this really happening or...?"

Just let nature work it's wonders...
those fungi you ate had a little bitty garden spider under the cap, and she's on the journey with you, inside you and now you're about to be consumed by her.

Oh well... don't fear the reaper...

eeeeyaahhhhhh!


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Poster: Speaking in Swords Date: Dec 2, 2007 7:17pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do you like Drumz>Space/Feedback?

eeeeyaahhhhhh! is exactly what I said upon first hearing the 10/26/89 Star my one time on K. The pre-Drums jam out of that Star might as well be a Space, it makes my skin crawl just thinking about it. Delightful I tells ya!

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Poster: cream-puff-war Date: Dec 8, 2008 7:31am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do you like Drumz>Space/Feedback?

yeah, I've streamed that one before.
thanks for the reminder... I'm listening to Dark Star etc. again now.

Some of the reviews were in the back of my mind when I went all 8-legged earlier...

(quoth:)
Reviewer: Enlightened Deadhead - - May 29, 2006
Subject: Dark Star : skeleton of the entire world

If you want to take a journey into your psyche and see what associations lie in wait - fear not for the whole world is in this one Dark Star...tv static, racquetball courts, time-machines, medieval torture, insect communication, funeral horns of new orleans, buddhist scripture, worldbeat, witches incantations, ice-ages, wars, raga, muzak, volcanoes, black holes, peruvian indigenous sounds, crawling, creeping, gliding, seething ends, beginnings, and tight rope walking over some huge abyss.

Reviewer: brainbeat - - December 2, 2004
Subject: Lovely

My third show.
I had to leave during space. I went to the bathroom to rinse my face in the sink and the water started crawling up the walls to the ceiling and back down to the floor. I knew a head who used to be a roadie for the dead and he pointed out Owsley to me - in crazy mask and with some mountain man type walking stick (he had on the 'owsley-dead-bronze' belt buckle that is infamous). There were quite a few costumes around it being near halloween.

Anyway this show was completely sick. This is what convinced me to tour as much as I could until I finally quit in Oct. '94. Download this now you wont regret it. I will never forget this show.
(PS - not confirmed but I beleive this is the 2000th dead show)[?]

Reviewer: Joe Shlobotnick - - September 30, 2004
Subject: Evil

I was at this show and it was extremely edgy. We watched many a pastel colored yuppie suck down frozen mixed drinks, oblivious to the seriousness of the first set. By the time Drums was hitting us, these poor folks were literally crawling up the aisles, covered in their own sick, trying to get out of the cauldron. A bizarre sight, but I am sure if had been partaking of anything psychoactive that night, I would have been right down there with them.

Gives new meaning to the phrase "killer show"!(unquote)

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This post was modified by cream-puff-war on 2008-12-08 15:31:14

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Poster: spacedface Date: Dec 2, 2007 7:49pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do you like Drumz>Space/Feedback?

In 10-26-89 it seems like Dark Star through Space is one big song anyway...

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Poster: jglynn1.2 Date: Dec 3, 2007 6:28am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do you like Drumz>Space/Feedback?

Yes to a degree

Seastones

Insect Fear

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Poster: cream-puff-war Date: Dec 2, 2007 4:58pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do you like Drumz>Space/Feedback?

p.s.

In case you find my reply a bit on the far side, admittedly I was inspired by the following review for March 16, 1968 (http://www.archive.org/details/gd68-03-16.sbd.vernon.9388.sbeok.shnf):

"Reviewer: DeadDave ***** September 28, 2004
Subject: Violent Caution-Feedback

Absolutely horrifying, Feedback sounds like a Tractor Trailer horn on the highway in a tunnel with a crying baby strapped to the grill!!!

Watch out for your EARS!!! And your mind while your at it."

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Poster: Speaking in Swords Date: Dec 2, 2007 4:48pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do you like Drumz>Space/Feedback?

Yes.

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Poster: cream-puff-war Date: Dec 2, 2007 4:22pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do you like Drumz>Space/Feedback?

Do I like Drumz (what are drum"z"?)>Space/Feedback?

Not unless it sounds like babies are being tortured by 3-headed arachnoid mutant monsters from the 13th dimension, and sitars are playing backwards laughing at the shoes I'm wearing on my hands...

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Dec 3, 2007 1:20am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do you like Drumz>Space/Feedback?

It's an interesting question.....how many people did the Dead turn on to these "inaccessible modernist" music styles? Are there hordes of people who became fans of drum solos & drumming bands because of seeing the Dead? Are there untold millions who started listening to free jazz and abstract noise because they went to some Dead shows?
Or, maybe there are noise-freaks who could never stand a country tune until they heard the Dead do some? I don't know; depends what you call inaccessible....

The "feedback" is my favorite part of many a show. Funny thing is, I always considered it "normal" music....just like doing whole sets of songs seguing into each other with transitional jamming, once I heard the Dead doing it, not only did it not seem unusual, but I had to wonder why more bands weren't doing it. And afterwards it became hard to take "pop" bands that do the same short songs every night.

The Dead mixed a whole bunch of different styles into their shows....over time, more styles kept getting put into the mix. Some of us might like all of it; others prefer one stage of it, or just a few types of the songs they did. It didn't seem to me like a matter of getting introduced to 'strange' new music - after all, since '66 the Beatles (and others) had been showing how much variety a rock band could offer, from the simple tunes to the strange freakouts. An early Dead staple like Viola Lee Blues is very much in the spirit of Sgt Pepper, that kind of blending was "in the air" then. But most bands don't have the range to give us that variety....

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Poster: cream-puff-war Date: Dec 3, 2007 1:56am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do you like Drumz>Space/Feedback?

some of the few bands that did have "the range to give us that variety" were:

Kaleidoscope (the US band, and maybe the UK one as well!)

The Pretty Things (they made many changes over the years)

The Kinks (ditto)

The Baroques (obscure American band whose 1 album is rich)

Flamin Groovies (their 1st LP, Supersnazz, should have been called "The Off-White Album"!)

The Beach Boys (from Surfer Girl to Smile, they did it all)

The Turtles (from surf to lush psych to vocals for Zappa!)

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Poster: Arbuthnot Date: Dec 2, 2007 5:18pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do you like Drumz>Space/Feedback?

if you are looking for dissonance, the GD are probably not your best choice of research

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Poster: cream-puff-war Date: Dec 2, 2007 5:41pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do you like Drumz>Space/Feedback?

really Arb?
right... serious dissonance afficianados probably like stuff much less listenable than the worst of the Grateful dead I suppose.

But try blasting the feedback of 3-16-1968 on "11" if your sanity is a back burner item...

I do prefer the feedbacks without the help of midis and cgi sp. fx. But that Raven Space of April 19, 1982 from Poe's hometown is something to behold:

http://www.archive.org/details/gd82-04-19.sbd.clugston.2316.sbeok.shnf

And my 1970 music teacher who had albums in her collection by Ornette Coleman, Cecil Taylor, Charles Ives and oddly, just one Grateful Dead album, liked only one track (? - there IS only one track on side 1!), on side 1 of her copy of Anthem of the Sun:

"And So We Leave The Castle".

For details on the making of that track (a space which imho, deftly captures the gnawing pre-dawn psychedelic nausea), see the GD dvd Anthem to Beauty.




This post was modified by cream-puff-war on 2007-12-03 01:41:08

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Poster: Arbuthnot Date: Dec 2, 2007 5:36pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do you like Drumz>Space/Feedback?

oh hey, i like nothing more than a mind-wrenching feedback out of alligator, a la 2/14/68, and i assure you i never bypass the feedback out of that amazing jam in 10/12/68; my point was more along the lines that the GD were not about drums/space/feedback, they were an exploratory band yes, but those musical diversions/dissonances were by no means their reason for stepping on stage

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Poster: Tito&Smokey Date: Dec 3, 2007 7:05am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do you like Drumz>Space/Feedback?

Space" was a complete fucking waste of time,NO-ONE liked it,even if they say they did.Just a bunch of noisy gibberish nonsense.Space gets cut on ALL my downloads,as does drums.Space was the time to go to the shitter,maybe look for some pills to come down off the L,and throw Hot Dogs at the spinners in the hallway.Ill tell you something about those spinners,they thought they owned the goddamn hallway,and the wouldnt move out of the fucking way.You better believe they moved when they saw me comming,because they knew i would crack them in their fucking jaw with my forearm if they didnt move after the first "excuse me".All i had to do was do it one time(Oakland 89) and then those fucking freaks knew to steer clear of me.

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Poster: gdkid Date: Dec 3, 2007 2:47pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do you like Drumz>Space/Feedback?

fuck you tito, you are nothing more then a piece of shit I would scrap off my shoe

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Poster: spacedface Date: Dec 3, 2007 5:29pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do you like Drumz>Space/Feedback?

Tito and/or Smokey, your words are your reward.

I didn't go to shows to get drunk or sleep. The space and jams were my favorites because they were the bridges and doors and revealed connections between songs.

Be careful planting ice, and Happy Harvesting!

This post was modified by spacedface on 2007-12-04 01:29:49

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Poster: Finster Baby Date: Dec 5, 2007 5:40am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do you like Drumz>Space/Feedback?

it depends on what my mood is at the time. Generally I am not a fan of space. I have heard a few that had some interesting parts, but overall it isn't what I'm into. Drums I have alittle bit more interest in, but again it is a mood thing. Sometimes I can really get into it and others I just skip right over it. When attending shows Drums/Space was always the part of the show that I was least worried about missing.

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Poster: He Live's Date: Dec 2, 2007 1:57pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Do you like Drumz>Space/Feedback?

[...]January 3, 1970. Fillmore East

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2007-12-02 21:57:15